Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

Purchased some BU/MS sovereigns from Ebay seller at $550 for 4 (which offered me the opportunity to purchase another 32 at the same price when gold was $682.00 an ounce) recently. This gave me many bullion coins as a fairly good discount price at the time. Shop "lots" on Ebay to the wise. Seller took a bath IMHO. :bath:

They were in the 1920s and they looked rather grand; so I happen to have the five "courtesy NGC standard world gold coin coupon" for this year as a their member.

So, what-the-heck, I sent in just 5 of them. With a little luck they'll come back as MS65 or higher. (Guess-estimate) $300 to $400 each???? :banana:

That throws them both into the numismatic (collecting) :elefant: arena and doubles their bullion value.

We'll see - always trying to think outside the box that corners us all in. Really doesn't matter when you buy low and sell higher, right? :haha: :haha:

PS if they come back MS65 guess where the rest will go and guess where I'll sell them in the LATE future? :bear_rolleyes:

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

Welcome to the land of numismatics! Not a bad place to be if you can suffer the slings and arrows of the bullion-only crowd. (Frankly, I suspect we enjoy our collections more for the coin artwork, the history and the excitement of widing our scope past just bullion! I am reading some coin collecting books and having a blast so I don't care much if the bullion only crowd thinks we're a bit thick........I love looking at what I have collected, and I am making a profit here and there.)

You did exactly what I suggest to people - buying semi-numismatic coins close to spot.....well done on that! BU coins come in at about MS 60, thos I have seen some hit MS 63-65 so you might be pleasantly surprised. You did exactly the right thing submiting only 5 at first to see how the grading goes........so smart move there too!

Sounds like you are doing all the right things and a great start into this area of the coins.

:beer:

But watch out - this area is even MORE addicting than just stocking up on bullion!!

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

http://www.alpinesurvival.com/sunshi...ver-proofs.jpg

Bullion Rules!

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

Hey, History Student:

Numismatics is addicting. Fortunately my addiction grows in value, so I cannot bankrupt my family. :banana: Or, so I think.

I agree with Master Ho - I usually do (he's a level headed fellow - kind of blockish) :eek_ma: Just kidding Master Ho.

Have fun with it. Find coins you enjoy and collect them in the best condition you can afford. It is a thing of beauty to have a complete set of evenly graded coins.

Most sets are a mish-mash of grades. Similar to a woman who has a great body, but a dog face. :thumbs do You want the coin set to be evenly matched.

When you get tired of numismatics, stock up on PMs. Currently I'm in my bullion phase and spend little on numismatics unless I can get a deal.

I just purchased 30 washington quarters all mint state for $40. Good deal for me.

The Great Ag

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

BITE YOUR TONGUE!!!!!! Tired of numismatics indeed! :haha:


However, when I have cash and want to invest more in PMs, unless I have something I see I want at a decent price, I will buy bullion.

For those just starting in numismatics.....I have been reading a lot more lately (I don't often have time with all the time I spend online and other projects)........but a couple of quotes have sort of stuck in my head about numismatics.

Numismatics is not semi-numismatic..........in here, we go with semi cause its closest to bullion price (if you fear that TSWHTF, then rare coins might still be only worth what their gold content is)........the expensive collectors stuff should be left to people with money or expert knowledge......tho right now, some coins, like St Gaudens at MS 64-65 are somewhat underpriced cause a lot of people sold theirs in the fall to buy the 24kt Buffalo when they first came out, and the 20th Anniversary Gold and Sivler sets.


"There is no Santa Claus in numismatics." People do not give great deals on rare coins........you very rarely find something you can buy and have made money on right away. You buy something of quality and hold it! In time it appreciates. (The recent price jump on the 20th Anniversary Silver sets are certainly an exception for those lucky enough to buy when they came out at $100, and are now worth 5 times as much in about 7 months.)

If someone on the phone or TV is selling you something and telling you its a great deal, you can bet its overpriced, or the rarity is exaggerated, or its cleaned or damaged and they are not telling you. (The latter is a great scam!)

Secondly, unless you know what you are doing - only buy coins graded by the best third party graders (PCGS, then NGC) because the rest are not considered trustworthy graders by people who, down the road, might want to buy your coin.

Thus, to sum this all up, the following quote:

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

Thanks MasterHo for the words of wisdom. I do have a set of $20 Saints
that I'm just missing the high-end ones (only about 20) - all in PCGS & NGC. I do have many of the common varieties (some 10 MS65 and 1 MS66) so when the gold starts after the $1,000 to $1,600 price I can trade them off on the special ones. I do have a $20 St. MS62 1911-DD; and a 1924 MS63 Error too.

I can grade pretty close now due to my mistakes and accomplishments.

However, I think there are a lot of sleepers out there like the Mexican 50 peso; the Sovereign, I love my 10 20 Franc EF45 Napoleons too.

They sure are not as boring as buying a 100 Gold-eagle bullion coins.

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

I only wish I had the kind of money to buy 100 Gold eagles at a time..........I have a friend who is offering me a 10 ounce coin I wish I ould afford........

Unfortunately, with all my knowledge (and I say that sarcastically but we don't have an icon for that) I don't have the sort of funds that I can put it to the kind of useage I would like...........I be po'!!!!

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

It aint gonna work, your not going to get me to cross the bullion/numismatic line.

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

Oh, we figured that - we just got tired of posting "To Everyone EXCEPT Naccarato" in all the threads! :D

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

That is funny Master-Ho, LOL.

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

Seems to me there are around 200 ounces on that desk. Is that a picture of an old friends stash AuNuggets?

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

Master Ho , I know you tire of posting about these issues sometimes , But I , and I bet a lot of us , NEVER tire of reading those posts!
Please keep sharing with us.
I think there are more and more closet numi's here than admit it:bear_happy: .
Thanks. Well said.

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

There is nothing more beautiful, honoring, historical, and personal satisfaction than owning a gold coin that means something to YOU.

Especially if you got a rock-bottom price on it TOO!

In 2000 I bought some 11 common dated SAINTS at around $270 a piece - each one in an old NUMISMATIC huge plastic case GRADED MS60 - from INVESTMENT RARITIES.

I sent them into PCGS in 2005 and here's what came back:

2 MS65s
4 MS64s
4 MS63s
Pretty but extremely 1 MS62

Talk about OLD COIN undergrading!

Now that was a FUN day - I only wish you all can have the joy - perhaps in your favorite coin. Mine is the $20 Saint especially in the WW1 days.

Warm and best regards to each and every one of you.

Oh, those 100 1-oz 1997 Gold-Eagles - again they were bought in 2000 for $27,000
total.

Boring!

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

your pictures are an inspiration and are awesome.

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

Actually, they belong a little closer to home than that. 250 ounces of Krands in the photo (or just out of the frame), and one lone 50 peso. The real boring part of it all is that about 75% of it was bought lump sum in Sept. 1999 and the rest was "free money", added accumulation from in and out trades with no additional cash until the photo was taken back in early '06. It's been an interesting (if "boring") hobby.

:s1:

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

Bless you......and thank-you!

Ho

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

:haha::haha: :haha::haha::haha: :haha:

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

The majority of those coins were obtained in 1999 AuNuggets? Very nice, I was buying most of my stuff in the early to mid nineties then got scared off PM's by the late nineties (never sold) till around 2003 so I never got in on those super lows in Gold. Some analyst named Prechter was calling for 200 dollar Gold and I use to think he knew something.

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

I first started buying PMs in the form of silver bars back in the late 60s, played the markets up into 1980 and into '81, mixed with numismatics throughout most of the 70s and 80s, and sold out most all of it by '89. Did manage to sell some PMs into the top, and sold out alot of top-grade morgan and peace dollars in 1989. Overall, it was a very profitable time to be involved on either end. Most of the 90s we spent "just watching" the PMs as they continued their "grind years", but when the BOE started dumping gold in the later part of '99 taking the dollar price down to near $250 an ounce, I just inherently understood the signs of the classic bottom like many others did from being involved in the 70s. Prechter's $200 might have happened had it not been for the Washington agreement in late '99, but that was the bottom and the turning point for gold. The climb back up got off to a rough and slow start, but once past $300, it gained momentum to the $400 level and then beyond to where we are today. I sometimes think if it had not been for "the fluke of '80" that so many are now using as a (false) referrence point, that we could now easily be over the $1000 mark. But given just the "official" inflation numbers (and NOT including other factors such as taxes, spreads, opportunity costs, storage fees, etc.) we are really buying gold TODAY at the equivalent of LESS THAN $250 gold in 1980 dollars, a much longer way from "the top" than just the perceived 180 dollar difference from $670 to $850. Just to "break even" for inflation since January of 1980 (if we had bought and held gold since then), the current dollar gold price would have to be ~$2300 per ounce. All of these economic pundits crowing about us "approaching the all-time highs" just really don't have a clue.

:mad_m:

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

Very good. Well said. Especially at the end! :rant:

Right now TPTB with the power to print and buy back for that matter; so DO NOT underestimate them. Please do not. Have BEEN dumping GOLD on the marketplace by hook, crook, and verbalizing. Most they sell to one-another the central bankers -however. But the thing is that they have printed so much, made so much, and loaned out so much (read 250 to 300 TRILLION); that the folks that understand history are grabbing some gold. :aetsch:

A trillion seconds takes thirty-two thousand and six-hundred years to pass (32,600) Soooooooooo...that's a lot of fiat up there at some 300 trillion.

The Chinese have 1.2 to 1.5 trillion US$ in fiat that is LIQUID! So take a stroll down memory lane -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff_Act

Back then the US Congress made the Great depression 10 times worse worldwide because of the ABOVE. :aetsch:

Guess what? They are trying the same type Congressional action as the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act. No kidding! :wink:

Except then the US was the greatest DEBT LOADED down nation that ever existed. :wink:

You are smart. Back then in 1930 they did not know how to connect the dots. I.E. you pass this act and the world sucks up bigtime! :wink:

So US Congress passes 2007 SUCKO Tariff Act A. Then, B China gives the SUCKO the Big Finger of Fate and dumps 1.5 trillion US$ into the marketplace.
The C, the US$ goes from .82 to .20 cents - and gold goes up 10 to 50 times. Then D happens the Chinese just trade with Europe, Japan, and Asia.
You see I read the recent Maybury paper where the US to China they were a bunch of FUC__RS! And guess who gonna get screwed? :wink:


America looks like SPAIN in 1588 after she lost the Spanish Armada mixed with Spain in 1694 when the Bank of England took over (read Chinese central bank here now).

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

History, I haven't heard any recent news about the US putting pressure on china over trade. Last stuff I heard was nothing big unless I missed something.

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

Sent my coins in just last Monday - JUST priority mail - San Diego to NGC Florida
they arrived Wednesday - and today Friday 5-18 they have been verified and ready to grade already. Wow.

Never use those jerks at PCGS again. Last time they kept 10 Saints for 8 weeks. They Promised me five free coupons - they LIED! Only gave me two; I think I threw them away. I had called and called during those 8 weeks they could not FIND my coins. They don't know what they are doing. I don't trust folks that promise and lie. Heck, I used to a cop there (gosh, 42 years ago - I'm getting old!) in Newport Beach too!

NGC is ten times better company even though PCGS is 40 miles away - and NGC is 3000 miles away.

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

This - IMO - is another one of those Tao things.........on the one hand, NGC is much smaller, their turnaround time much faster and its easier for them to keep track of stuff. In addition, they have much easier grading standards.

PCGS, on the other hand, is much bigger, much longer turn around time and can get a little more confused in their dealings. They have a stricter grading system.

For some - NGC is the better deal........but for the majority of collectors and buyers, PCGS's grading is better and, when coins get sold, their graded pieces get a good chunk more for a coin graded the same.

A few years back - one could argue that similarly graded coins were worth the same.........but NGC struck deals with the Shop At Home's Coin Vault and started doing some "questionable" grading things to get their coins out faster to HSN. (They are now putting "First Strike" labels on coins that came out YEARS before a First Strike label was ever used.......they argue that, because a box was sealed and had the packing slips inside, stored away for years, it qualifies - and one could argue it does - but most collectors are laughing up their sleeves at this one - especially after all the arguing and deabte - and upcoming lawsuit - on what "First Strike" really means.....while the TV show sells them out like they are rare at a HUGE premium!)

Since then, PCGS graded coins are considered better (more truthfully? professionally?) graded.

The came the Buffalo gold coins and NCG really shot themselves in the foot.........their reputation suffered...........>>


SO - while PCGS is considered number one, and NCG considered number two - someone having them graded has to consider (and I AM not saying either side is "wrong").......the ease and turnaround time of grading verus the price one wants to get when one sells a coin.

Check out APMEX's prices for PCGS or NGC Buffalos..........or check Ebay and you will see, in general, PCGS gets more bang for your buck.

In fact, I am currently, slowly, a couple of coins at a time, letting PCGS cross-grade mine for just that reason.

But, again, its a Tao thing - and different people will have different opinions on this, different takes, and different objectives. Mine is to have my coins graded by the company that will, when the time comes to sell, be seen as the ultimate graded coin.

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

I don't have a dog in this fight but no one has EVER told me that NGC was the way to go.

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

Uh oh, I see a divide in the Numismatic camp.

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

Hey, you want a fight?

WWE wrestling is on tonight! :rofl:

Just a slight difference in viewpoint and experience - tho I didn't mention that the coin dealers I know all favor PCGS over NGC and have for years.......

Exactly.

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

That's okay with me. I just did not like sending in some 10 saints worth 20Gs and they can't find them for 8 weeks. I love to see how you would feel with $20 grand blowing in the PCGS wind. :hahaha:


Once burned; use your head; twice burned I would be damn stupid; and they never did send me the 5 make-ups they promised. :bear_thumb:

That means (just to me, of course :s10: ) that they screwed me out of at least a month wondering if I would have to file a claim - and then lied too. :508: :508:

I also wonder about their PCGS in-house agent Tulving (Newport Beach too) who claims they are so great. He's the one on the Buffalo grading. :bowdown: to PCGS

Personally I rather see a little than hear a lot of BS :s10:


- and for 8 weeks those jerks at PCGS gave me BS and NO other remedy except to mention their actions herein. I've been warned by their past actions and sadly can not give them another chance. I even called them twice and talked to a supervisor who promised a second and third time - with no follow-up to their promises. They just wait until you get tired of their mistakes and GO away. :bear_sad:

Frankly - I think they are too big for their britches and wish a few others like NGC and IGC mixed with another would merge and take they them on.
:wink:

************************************************** ***********************************************

All the above is one (probably of many) person's viewpoint and that is rather negative as to the way a company treats one of their members.

The positive thing is that there is another company that treats its member great. they even wrote me back within a day about my "world gold" submission forms. One day - not 8 stinkin' weeks with 20Ks worth of my gold gone bananas - to tell me that I could save 10% if I did them on-line. With a five work day turn-a-round versus 8 lousy weeks (oh! shut-up - there you go again!)

The devil made me do it.

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

And I can respect that opinion based on your experience - I really can - and I live close enough that - if that had happened to me, I would have been on their doorstep with my furlined crowbar!!! Its unfortunate that that happened and I would - at the least - call and talk to the head of the place and let him know (assuming you haven't already).

However, any business can screw up cause all businesses are run by monkeys with carkeys (its just worse when they screw up with you) and regardless, in the end, when you go to sell, buyers will look for PCGS over NGC and not know, or care, why you went with NGC. ((Don't get me wrong - NGC IS ths second best grading service and people still like and use them - sometimes I buy a coin from them and crossgrade cause I know I can get the same grade from PCGS but pay less buying one graded by NGC.......and I have a few coins, graded by NGC I won't cross-grade because I don't think I can get a better label.))

Anyway, it always saddens me when anyone I know has a miserable experience in any aspect of the numismatic field because it only hurts the entire hobby and business.

And PS - you never did say (or I missed it) how the grading came out!!!

Cheers!

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

PCGS has been on top of the grading services for years. NGC "use to" be much tighter on high grade Morgan and Peace dollars back in the 80s, but they really started to bury themselves with all of the commercialism (ala HSN and others) and have lost alot of stature in the past several years. PCGS remains the preferred grading service for most serious collectors of higher end material. Buyers of the "end product", the already graded and slabbed coin, don't care about the shop politics but only what they see in front of their eyes. PCGS and NGC have always been the two top rated graders......ALL of the others are far down the line, and not recommended at all IMO. Just compare prices realized on like coins amongst the major numismatic auction companies, and it quickly becomes apparent that PCGS still carries the market, for better or worse. Not that I agree with sloppy customer service or long grading times, but the marketability of the end product is what needs to be taken under consideration.

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

Any suggestions for the best way to get a coin graded by PCGS? I'm in the L.A. area, and I see they allow drop-offs once a month, or they grade at the Long Beach show (and I assume they give it back to you by the end of the show?). Do you have to become a member to use these services? What would be the best/cheapest way to get only a single coin graded, preferably without shipping it? (The coin is a Saint, BTW.)

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

http://www.geocities.com/drummerinte...bbyheenan2.jpg

Master_Ho you got me all wrong. I hate seeing the Numismatic guys fighting, I do think History Student is right though.

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

BOBBY! I love it!!!!

Naw, I don't think anyone is really fighting..........any more than wrestling is real! :proud:

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

I think Master HO is right too. Period. I just can't use them - because of MURPHY'S LAW - it'll happen again to me only worse! :Sorry: 2/3rd of my coins are incapsulated by PCGS - GOD Bless their pea-pickin' souls!

:tomato::tomato::tomato:

For the grand fellow above. Join PCGS for the $100 or so bucks and send the five-for-free coins. I'm sure your luck will be better than mine. Mine was a year & half ago; they we probably up to their sorry ARSES in Aligators and forgot to drain the darn swamp.

:emotions16:

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

I think Master HO is right too. Period. I just can't use them - because of MURPHY'S LAW - it'll happen again to me only worse! :Sorry:

:tomato::tomato::tomato:

By the way; 2/3 rds of my coins have PCGS written on the plastic dealie - GOD bless 'em!

For the grand fellow above. Join PCGS for the $100 or so bucks and send the five-for-free coins. That way you don't have to depend upon some coin store operator - you are in control - and frankly - it's fun. Or join NGC

http://www.collectors-society.com/


I'm sure your luck will be better than mine. Mine was a year & half ago; they we probably up to their sorry ARSES in Aligators and forgot to drain the darn swamp.

:emotions16:

Re: Crossing over from bullion to numismatic
 

First and foremost about getting in to Numi is some knowledge il admit i got over 20yrs under my belt and im still a young pup (grandad infected) i still have world coin books from the early 80s they take alotta space but great for arabic,chinese look ups.
And of course is the love of coins,the art the history behind is always great even at a young age on a rainy night id pull out my research books and go over coins i havent inspected yet.
My mother did estate sales for quite a few years and would pickup small bags of coins for me last count i had over 187 countrys i believe.
And of course you find some real keepers i found an 1891-H cabadian half cent only 50k ever minted pricey to say the least.